EC talks with John Woo
October 8th, 2009 by Scott Marks
The name John Woo conjures up images of balletic violence, such as a gunslinger so busy pumping ammo that he forgets to remove the toothpick from his mouth, and shell casings lyrically bouncing against the rain-soaked pavement.
John Woo is arguably one of today’s most influential directors. The Chinese auteur, 63, is best known for a series of tough, style-drenched Hong Kong noirs (”The Killer,” “A Bullet in the Head,” “Hard Boiled”).
He made the move to Hollywood in 1993. Greeted by mixed reviews (”Hard Target,” “Broken Arrow”), Woo scored a critical and box office hit with “Face/Off.” His most personal American film, “Windtalkers,” was heavily edited (and ultimately abandoned) by MGM. While “Mission: Impossible II” was the highest grossing film of 2000, Woo has yet to make an American film that is a patch on any of his Hong Kong hits.
“Red Cliff” marks the director’s return to China after a 17-year absence. It’s one of the 200 films to be screened at the 10th Annual San Diego Asian Film Festival, slated for October 15-29. The 148-minute “International Cut” of “Red Cliff” will be shown at 7 p.m. on Sunday, October 18 at Mission Valley UltraStar Cinemas at Hazard Center, 7510 Hazard Center Drive; www.sdaff.org
Woo’s film is an epic tale set in the Three Kingdoms period in Ancient China, with battle sequences unparalleled by any film in recent memory. It is also a major return to form for the distinguished action director and a film that he is very proud of.
These days, Woo spends “more time in Beijing because I have quite a few projects working in China right now.” He calls Los Angeles his home.
During our interview, the great director spoke slowly and with frequent pauses as though choosing his words as carefully as he does his shots.
Scott Marks: Master Woo?
John Woo (Laughing): Hello, Scott
First off, I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to talk to me about the San Diego Asian Film Festival (SDAFF) and “Red Cliff.” I didn’t gut much sleep last night. I feel like a giggling schoolgirl. You are someone who has had a tremendous impact on my film-loving life.
Thank you.
I’ll try not to keep you too long, so let’s kick this off. Where am I speaking to you from?
In Los Angeles.
Where do you spend most of your time now, in Hong Kong of Los Angeles?
For the moment I spend more time in Beijing because I have quite a few projects working in China right now. But my home is here. I come back quite often.
What was the first film that you remember seeing in a movie theater?
Do you mean Chinese movies or Western ones?
We’ll do one at a time.
The first time I remember going to a movie was called…it was a war movie.
I’m guessing it was some time ago.
Let’s see…I can’t remember the name. I was 8 or 9-years-old.
What was the first American film that you remember seeing in a movie theater?
“The Wizard of Oz.” It was the first American movie I ever watched. Before that I had seen quite a few Chinese opera movies, but for the American movie it was “The Wizard of Oz.”
When was the first time that you realized that actors didn’t make up the dialog as they went along and that there was intent and purpose behind the filmmaking process?
(Laughing) Gee, I don’t know. At the time I was so fascinated with the movies. I loved watching the performances and I didn’t notice the dialog.
You must have spent a great deal of your youth in enormous, single screen dream palaces.
Oh, yes, yes, yes. We could watch all kinds of movies from all over the world. I spent a lot of time in big theaters. More than school!
As someone who grew up on the front lines of cinema, how do you feel about the multiplexing of movie theaters all in the name of staggered showtimes?
Staggered show times?
When we were growing up, you’d go to a theater, the usher would rip the ticket and there was only one auditorium to choose from. They didn’t have to direct you. Now they show the same movie on six screens in order to stagger the showtimes and sell more tickets.
Now it’s much more convent. I know what you are going for, but I think it’s a good thing being able to go in and watch any movie you like. In the old time, it wasn’t that easy. For my experience I grew up very poor. It wasn’t that easy to watch a movie. Since we were so poor, the (neighborhood) theater that we had was very small and it was not that easy to get in. Sometimes we had to sneak into the theater to watch since we had no money. Once you were discovered by the conductor they would throw you out. Sometimes I got beaten up by the people who were checking the tickets. I don’t know what you call them.
Ushers?
Yes. We would get beaten up and thrown out of the theater. I wound up going outside to watch the movie through a peephole. Sometimes we would hide in the toilet and wait until there was no sign of the ushers. Later we had a lot of good theaters showing all kinds of art films. When we got some little money then we could watch any kind of movies we wanted. Every movie we could watch was like a treasure. It was so important to us.
You’re preaching to the choir. You grew up watching a lot of genre pictures. How did your passion for American musicals influence your trademark style of choreographed violence?
The place I lived was like hell. Everyday I had to deal with so many bad things. I had to deal with the gang fights. I had to fight to survive. I’ve seen so much crime and so many bad people, people who take drugs…I felt like I was in a living hell. There were two places I loved to go: the church and the theater. Whenever I felt sorrow after I got beaten up, I liked going to church to get my comfort and the other thing was sneaking into the theater to watch a musical.
Well, they are both houses of worship.
When I watch a musical I find my hope. I find my heaven. I love the music, I love the costumes, I love the dance. Always they make me happy. And the musicals gave me a lot of life. They also made me learn how to dance. I was a pretty good dancer when I was in high school. He musical made me go in for a decent life. That’s very important.
It’s the way in which they express love in musicals. I’ll never forget Gene Kelly tap dancing with the roller skates on his feet in “It’s Always Fair Weather.” He finally accepts the fact he is a decent guy worth of Cyd Charisse’s love and he expresses it by dancing through a gorgeous studio mock up of a bustling New York street.
Yeah. And I like his smile. It’s so real and so touching. It really makes you feel happy. Of course I like “Singin’ in the Rain” a lot.
Great history lesson, too.
And I also love Fred Astaire.
I guess I’m in the camp that prefers Astaire over Kelly, but when you get to that level of artistic brilliance, why quibble?
Yeah, yeah.
You have been directing for 35 years now, over half your life. On what film did you find your confidence as a director and realize that there was no turning back?
You mean in my movies?
Of the ones you made, yes.
(Long pause.) “A Better Tomorrow.” Even though I made a lot of kung fu films before “A Better Tomorrow,” I thought it was just a learning process. After I made that movie I found my dream. I found the real thing that I could do well and after that there was no turning back.
Let’s talk briefly about some of your influences. For some reason, I automatically assumed that one of the major influences on your signature image of two comrades shooting in unison came from Anthony Mann. There is a moment in “Bend of the River” when James Stewart and Arthur Kennedy are framed in a back to back shootout.
(Laughing) Yeah. I know the shot.
Every time I see that shot I think of you.
I agree that Anthony Mann was a wonderful director. I think you are right. I did watch a lot of great westerns (including) Anthony Mann movies. That kind of imagery is definitely an influence on my films.
I was surprised to learn that it was “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid” that inspired that recurring motif.
Yes, yes, yes. It did. I truly love George Roy Hill. “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid” has a great sense of humor. That’s what I get most from his film and that is something I would like to put in my films as well. The two characters played by Paul Newman and Robert Redford are so delightful and elegant. So nice to watch. They gave me so much inspiration for the characters in my movies. I must say I always try to imitate. (Laughing.)
Yes, but there is a difference between imitating and stealing and making it your own. You fit quite comfortably in the latter category. I’ll see a shot in one of your movies that obviously pays homage to Sergio Leone, but at the same time is so representative of John Woo. We both share a lifelong devotion to Martin Scorsese, perhaps you even more so. I never realized that not unlike Marty you also resisted the urge to join the clergy…which is something I personally thank God for every day. What have you learned from Martin Scorsese?
Sometimes when I use a little slow motion for a particular moment, it was learned from His films. When you see (one of my) heroes fire a lot of shots in fast speed where you see the bullet shells flying in the air or the clip landing in slow motion, that was from His films. Some of my camera movements are also taken from His films. Even though I am a great admirer of a lot of filmmakers - Martin Scorsese, Sam Peckinpah, Jean-Pierre Melville, David Lean, Kurosawa - I have learned so much from them, but I have never wanted to be them. I have never wanted to make a movie like Scorsese. I just wanted to learn from their spirit. I wish I could have the same kind of spirit like Scorsese to make a film.
But you do. Who are you kidding?
Yeah. (Laughs) But that’s the way I admire them. I also try to make my own style, my own film, but spiritually I want to be like them.
I was sorry to learn that you would not be able to attend this year’s San Diego Asian Film Festival.
Yeah, it’s the timing. My schedule is so tight. I’d really love to go. It’s a great honor for me. It would also been very nice to see San Diego. I’ve never been there.
This must change.
I deeply appreciate you and everyone who is showing me such great concern and support. I would really like to visit when the time permits.
Let’s talk a little about your latest project, “Red Cliff.” The three major battles in “Red Cliff” rank among your best work. Truly spectacular filmmaking.
Oh, thank you.
Can you take us into your though process and talk about how you go about creating and filming a battle sequence.
It took me a long time to figure out how to film those scenes. The final battle scene - the burning ship scene - is very famous in Chinese history.
Do you storyboard each scene?
We storyboard every shot. We also built about 25 real battleships for the shoot and eventual burning. We also have a great team from China. Great young people…very talented. And we also got great support from the Chinese army. There were 700 to 1,500 soldiers to work (as extras) almost every day. We had four units to work on every battle scene. We had a second unit, a stunt unit, an action unit and even a naval unit to work on every shot. There are very important action scenes in the movie. Most of the Asian people know this part of history and have all heard of this battle. We had to make it look real and quite stunning. That was a challenge.
What did you add that wasn’t in the book?
The turtle formation scene. That was my idea. It wasn’t in the book. I am a great admirer of Stanley Kubrick’s “Spartacus.” I think he was the first one to show a formation fighting scene in cinema. I had the chance to make one and I also wanted to make it bigger than his (Laughing). I find there’s a lot of Americans who are so familiar with the art of war. Some people also have learned the strategy and war tactics of ancient China. FOr the international audience, it is so interesting to see a battle scene with a very clever design, so I came up with the idea of the turtle formation. The turtle formation was actually created by one of our main characters called Zhuge Liang. Actually he created it, but I made it more interesting. We spent almost one year designing the scene and working on the storyboard drawing in order to make the scene work. Another great moment is the finale. The fighting on the ground.
The nighttime sequences are sensational.
You know it was a really tough thing to shoot especially the battle scenes. It was a first time experience for everyone. It was the first experience for the Chinese crew and it was the first experience for myself. You use more time to shoot anything modern in Hollywood. In Hollywood everything was so professional. Even with the horses used for the movies. It is not so in China. We have to spend five or six months just training the horses in addition to three months training the stuntmen how to fight and how to do the formation. I spent a half of a year building the battleships to historical size. It took us almost two years preparing the scenes and eight months to shoot the entire movie.
Only eight months to shoot both parts?
We were pretty well prepared after spending the time training people and rehearsing the action sequences. It was eight months for the principal shooting and another two months for the visual effects.
So after all this time and all this effort, what is with this “International Cut” stuff?If Americans can take four hours of “Kill Bill,” surely we can take five hours of “Red Cliff.” I had to watch Parts 1 and 2 on DVD, something I hate doing on a maiden viewing. I like to see them projected, especially a film like this that has such scope and majesty. Unless a local museum decides to show it, I don’t think I stand a chance of seeing the film in its entirety on the big screen. Why isn’t “Red Cliff” being released in the States in its original two part form?
Two reasons. Asian audiences are so familiar with the story that it is a part of our history. We know all of the characters. They prefer a longer movie. They want to see all of their story. For the Western audience, and audiences in general, we have been told when they are watching a foreign film with subtitles they prefer a film under two-and-a-half hours. For other audiences that don’t know much about or history and are not familiar with the characters we had to simplify the story a little bit. Originally we had 10 stories in the film and all we had to do is cut it down a little bit. No matter what, I am still very happy with the international version, the shorter version. It’s still the same story and we keep all the major action sequences in the film. Personally, I would prefer to show the five hour movie. (Laughs)
Me too! Originally I was told 20 minutes and here we are coming up on the 50 minute mark. Two more questions and I will let you go. In the past, some critics have taken you to task over “relative absence or insignificance of female characters” in your movies. How has this changed in “Red Cliff?”
The main female character in “Red Cliff” wasn’t in the book. I wanted to show their beauty while at the same time playing up their strong personality. It also has a lot to do with presenting courage in a female character. The movie is all about teamwork and intelligence and friendship. I really wanted the women to make a major contribution to the film. That is why I tried to make the female role bigger than any of my other movies.
IMDB.com lists 14 John Woo films currently in production. What’s next on the docket?
I still have two projects developing in Hollywood. For my next film I also wanted to work in China. It’s called the “Flying Tigers.” It’s a World War II movie about a South American volunteer air force flyer helping the Chinese army against their fight with the Japanese. It’s based on a true event. The “Flying Tigers” was very famous in China at the time. It’s an end of the war movie. Another ambitious project is “The Monkey King.” The idea cam from one of our famous novels called “Journey to the West.” It’s a legendary story.
Is there any chance that you could pull some strings and smuggle in an uncut 35mm print of “Red Cliff” for the Oct. 18 screening at SDAFF? C’mon, Master Woo…Johnnie…You can do it!
(Laughing.) I really want to do it and I will talk to the distributor and try to make it work.
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This article originall appeared in a shortened form on SDNN.com.
Tags: John Woo, john woo interview, RED CLIFF, san diego asian film festival, sdaff, sdnn.com, TrailerShare: 
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23 Responses to “EC talks with John Woo”
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Great interview Scott! Looking forward to RED CLIFF.
My total time in movie theaters over the past two years has been around five hours. However, I’d gladly sit down for the FULL five hour movie from Master Woo.
Another great interview Scott! It wooed me, man!
He hasn’t made a good film in years. His English films are weak and forgettable.
Such a disappointment.
True, Woo Woo (I know, ha, ha)
But FaceOff was the closest thing to one of his old heroic bloodshed movies in Hong Kong!
Nice to see you checking in, Ronnie. Who knew that you could type? John WOO Woo WOO!
I’ll defend “Windtalkers” and “Face/Off.” See the director’s cut of WT on DVD. It’s a much stronger, more coherent movie and “F/O” is a rousing genre picture. I mean, they kill a kid in the first 5 minutes. What’s not to like?
M:I2 was better than 1 & 3 combined, but that’s faint praise. Find “Red Cliff.” I think you’ll be astounded by the action sequences. There are lumps in the second half, but overall this is Woo’s best film since his glory days at Golden Princess.
Wow!
Scott, thanks for defending “Windtalkers”. The film was 16 months of my life - with probably 2 of those months spent working on the director’s cut.
I wish you could have seen the original opening of the film. Nicolas Cage losing his men in the opening battle originally played with no music. It was all sound with fade in and out from black (for titles). Very intense.
“Face/Off”! Nice!
Nice interview, Scott. I’m glad you asked about his influences. Some of those sneaking into theaters brings back memory of my childhood.
Agreed on Windtalkers the director’s cut. Much better. I’d say his “Broken Arrow” wasn’t too bad for Hollywood work.
thanks, Scott.
I think Broken Arrow was my favorite of his American movies (maybe cuz I liked Samantha Mathis). I wasn’t a fan of Face/Off. Too long and the lead acting was gawdawful. I would rather sit through the confusing mess of DePalma’s MI1, then the snoozefest of MI2. Is seems like Ang Lee is the only Asian crossover filmmaker who gets final say on his American films. It would be nice to see what Woo could do with the shackles taken off.
Oddly my favorite of his Hong Kong films, Hard Boiled, was his least successful in China. The Chinese claimed it was too American.
One of my prized possessions is an old Laser Disc (anyone remember them) of the Criterion Collection’s “The Killer”. 3 LDs. Cost me $125 and worth every penny. One of my all time favorite films. (I also own a Criterion LD of “Hard Boiled”) I tear up when I watch it and goose pimples at the extras. (This is a shout-out to Bushido John.)
Woo is about as close to an artist as we have in cinema, although he has suffered disappointment with the American films, although I truly loved “Face/Off”. “MI2″ would have been better had Tom Cruise not been in it. I need to see the director’s cut of “Windtalkers”. “Hard Target” was one of the better Van Damme pics, but the less said about “Broken Arrow”, the better. (Ain’t it cool?)
Cutting up “Red Cliff” seems akin to what they did to Leone’s “Once Upon a Time in America”, making it clearly unintelligible. I truly hope they release the five hour version on screen at some point, even if only briefly. Have you seen both versions, Scott? What is the truncated version like?
Have yet to see the “International Cut,” but I’ll be introducing it at SDAFF on the 18th. Part 1 is some of the best Woo you’re ever going to find. The battle scenes are stunning and he is one of the few directors that know how to use CGI. Part 2 suffers a bit from comic relief and a recurring image of a sword ripping apart the screen that went through my skull. (No shit, I bet if happened at least 9 times.) The final battle is magnificent and overall this is his best film since he left China. It’s a great Sunday afternoon spectacle. Wish I could see it on the big screen at popular prices and with an intermission.
BTW, John. Your LaserDisc is worth about fifty-cents now. The changing face of technology, ain’t it a bitch.
I dunno, Scott. Since the Criterion versions of “The Killer” and “Hard Boiled” are out of print everywhere, including DVD, it might be worth more than you think. Just ask Mr. Dacapias.
And yes, I miss grand epics on a big screen at popular prices with an intermission, played in a huge auditorium with no bleed-in noise from the other movie playing next door. It seems like this film was made for bringing that back, but us Americans are too stoopid (sic) to appreciate that.
Didn’t all of extra material on the Laser make it over to DVD?
Yes, most of it, but the Criterion DVD has been out of print for many years now. It’s very hard to find.
I own that same Criterion laserdisc. I don’t think ALL of those trailers are on the the DVD. And certainly, that commentary is NOT on any other DVD. He had to re-record a commentary for the (non-Criterion) DVD pressing.
Okay. That’s a bit confusing.
1 MINUTE LATER - on ebay, our LD is selling for 19.99.
Ugh.
Thanks, the other John (Schultz, that is!)
The Killer was my gateway drug, I mean, film into the Asian action film genre.
1992, I’m working at a video store and a fellow clerk hands me the Killer, saying “You got to see this!” The rest is history, or infamy, others would say!
JQ, I believe you are right. How do the two commentaries compare?
Wouldn’t sell it anyway. That LD brings back many fond memories.
And I’ve got to look at Ebay to see what the going price is for both The Killer and Hardboiled (surprisingly I have both - plus the reissued Hardboiled, released by Dragon Dynasty).
Each of you has to see the cover of the bootleg Killer I own (it starts off in a learned tone then descends into the kind of language two drunk guys in front of a television would use) I kid you not!
Scott, didn’t you say you saw a copy of Hardboiled at the video store you used to work at?
Bedford: Twenty-bucks for any LaserDisc is a good price. Normally, if the film is released on DVD the Laser becomes worthless. It must be Woo’s alternate commentary.
Bushido: The had a used copy of the out-of-print Criterion DVD that they wanted top dollar for.
I agree, Scott. They have a used copy of the out-of-print Criterion DVD at Amoeba for $80. If I had the means, I would pick it up.
“Woo is about as close to an artist as we have in cinema,”
Sorry, but I have to take issue with that. Woo is a great craftsman, but I certainly don’t see him as an artist. Takes more than slo-mo doves to make it art (now it’s self-parody when I see his birds. It’s like winking at the audience.)
There are several guys out there I’d call an artist before Woo would even enter my head. The only Americans that come to mind are Lynch and Malick (I’m sure there’s a couple more). Several Asians could be considered artists. Wong Kar Wai (but he bores me. Sorry), Chanwook Park. The current Kurosawa. Zhang Ke Jia. Zhang Yimou. In Iran you’ve got Kiarostami and Panahi (but the Iranians tend to be redundant. Would be nice to see what they could do in a free society (but the constraints breed creativity)). Ah heck, this list could go on. Just sayin’ Woo ain’t the only one out there that can be called an artist.
You write this answer and don’t even acknowledge Scorsese? I won’t even dignify you with a response.
I assumed Marty goes without saying. However, I feel Kundun was his last pure artistic effort. I do like most of Gangs (the DD Lewis bits especially). And Aviator was a good old timey studio flick (tho Blanchett was annoying).